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Friday, June 26, 2009

The Death of Job's Children

Job had 10 children (Job 1:2). When Satan challenged God’s assertion of Job’s righteousness, he asked God for permission to harm Job’s loved ones and take Job’s possessions (vs. 10-11). God acquiesced, and Satan used human conflict (vs. 15, 17) and natural disaster (vs. 16, 18-19) to destroy all that Job had, and kill all whom Job loved, save his wife.

My biggest fear is that something would harm one of my children, let alone both of them. I know people who have lost children. It is completely devastating. Yet, from the text of the story of Job, the death of his children functions more as an element of movement, than a cause for mourning. Job must move from prosperity to pain so we can get to the meat of the story and find out if Satan was right. The death of 10 “young people” (vs. 19), as well as their spouses and servants, is a tool for the use of the storyteller. The event gets us to the point where Job has to react, and his reaction is the story.

The narrator never comments on the sorrow of such an awful human loss. Satan is utterly indifferent. Satan does not care a whit for Job’s children or for Job. Satan wants to prove God wrong. God also comes across coldly. We love reading “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air; they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they” (Matthew 6:25-26)?

These words of Jesus clearly state that God values us, loves us, and provides for us. Genesis chapters 1 & 2 declare humans made in the image of God; humans and humans alone are special in God’s kingdom.

And yet, in Job 1-2, humans (Job’s children and servants) are mere fodder for the wager. God seems more intent on proving Satan wrong than valuing Job’s children. In fact, God appears to be completely indifferent to the fate of Job’s children; and, God is not at all sympathetic to Job’s grief. What gives?

First, this is a good example of why we strive to consider the entire testimony of the Bible and not just isolated verses. When we read the New Testament we have to remember the Old, because the New is built on the Old. When we read the Old Testament, we have to remember the New because our interpretation of the Old is determined by the teaching of Jesus and Paul and the other New Testaments voices. With other passages as a corrective, we remember we can trust God to watch over us and care about us.

Second, death is not always the worst thing to happen to someone. We don’t see the Job story from the perspective of Job’s children. Their view is never considered. From their vantage point, maybe something is gained by their deaths. I don’t know. I look into the New Testament and see Stephen willingly face death for the sake of the Gospel (Acts 7). Jesus embraced death to save humanity.

This step of trying to step into the shoes of the peripheral characters does not put God in better light. God doesn’t look good in Job 1 & 2. But, lest we commit Job’s sins, let me hasten to add, we cannot understand God’s perspective. We cannot know the divine mind and I accept that. What I wish is that we had some dialogue or some knowledge of the thoughts of one or two of Job’s children. It might help us understand the morality of the story.

In seeing that we don’t have that, I am eternally grateful we have passages like Genesis 1 & 2 and Matthew 6 to remind us that God does value us and does care. These passages don’t provide relief to the seemingly capricious theology and theocentric morality of Job. But they remind us that God is good.

73 comments:

  1. It is interesting that the wife was spared. Perhaps to nag Job? "Curse God and die" was her response to the tragedy.

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    1. Well, what Jobs wife said is no different than what Adams wife said. Eve said basically the same thing, "Here Adam disobey God (curse God)and eat this and die with me. The only difference is Adam obliged, Job didn't! Could it be that Job was thinking of Adams plight? Could be as Adam was not so far away from Jobs time, as the book of Job is the oldest book of the bible.

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    2. I think you are being a little harsh on Job's wife. She just lost 10 of her children. How do you expect her to feel?

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    3. If we might view the 'symbolism' and also bring modern psychology into the mix, especially Carl Jung, the 'female' in mythology was often a symbol for 'Chaos', in the sense of Natural Law and that which exists outside of Man's 'control', and naturally the female association with reproduction, bringing Life, and the rhythms and laws of Nature, aka 'Reality'.
      In other words, she might be saying, "Hey, let's get real and fuggedabout all this 'religious' crap... can't you see, we're in a world of hurt here, and you better change and do sumthin' right now, or else you're already as good as dead." So it's the classic example of Faith vs Reason.

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    4. Husband and Wife: God made woman to complete huMan. God unites and sees husband and wife as O🙌🏽. She was protected from death as Job was protected because under God they are one.

      Be careful "Wifies" we know what happened to Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5). Love, Faith, Truth, honesty and real communication with God and each other is a key aspect. God first and the rest will be added...Just ask Him enough and He'll tell you to your face❣ lol lol He really will, trust😳. Once you experience God at "YOUR" lowest and most depleted moments, you will see Him at His best. It's an unexplainable, wonderful, personal, Holy, revealing and transforming fulfillment you will ever experience in a LIFETIME. You won't be able to keep it to yourself. Also remember with time you won't always feel this way. The despair will subside 😇

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    5. During Jobs time it was thought there is no life after death. God gives and takes away according to what you have or haven't done. He put that to rest and gave a glimpse of the future through Jobs life. He saves by faith in his son.
      Even now I know that my redeemer lives. God gave back double what he allowed to be taken so Job would be comforted through his remaining years on earth. But God also never took anything away for good. Everything even the things that were taken from his life on earth were given back by the Victory of the Cross of Christ.

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    6. I think ppl mind cant wrap there heads around the fact that god is real just not what ppl think he is.how can we really feel like were soooo special when you take in account the universe is sooooooo big and we are even more little the an ant compared to it and as far a the story of job his kids life had no meaning they died just to prove a point and on top of that a point they had nothing to do with. If job was god fearing and live for god im pretty sure in that day his kids was god fearing and love god to.so the real question is why? And y do we think we are really this special?

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    7. you all did not answer the question? how can new children "replace" Job's first Children? its like replacing a lost dog or cat??? Job's Children were Human Beings not animals.

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    8. I wonder the same thing...human lives are irreplaceable...even God says that every single human life is important. I am a mother and the pain of losing a child is not explainable in words..Love is the most powerful emotion..it has a power of its own..im not taking bad but if you Love someone seeing them hurt in anyway will destroy you, so I wonder how someone who loved Job so much could watch and allow his children to be taken from him especially by Satan...who gives a crap about what Satan thinks..he's garbage and he even proved that..my point is that why did anything have to be proven to the devil and why did a man who was doing no wrong who clearly loved God so much have to be caused so much pain and loss..How did God not feel like his heart was bleeding watching someone like Job who he loved lose his children?? When you love someone truly love someone you protect them and do anything in your power to protect them from any kind of hurt or pain...Surely provi g a point to some evil loser monster demon isn't more important then someone's broken heart..I am not talking with any disrespect I just maybe cannot wrap my head around this situation and I wonder if someone can explain that part of it better...

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    9. God is FOREVER pulling shit like this “Abraham, do you love me? Would you kill your child to prove your love of me?” Lucifer to Job: “I feel awful killing your three daughters and their families...it’s nothing personal...God dared me to do it and I couldn’t back down...a bet’s a Bet!!! God apparently doesn’t like you...I mean, God only bullied Abraham to kill his kid but he didn’t go through with it...you, Job, are different—-you didn’t rate a stay of execution...I’m sorry...It’s just business...”

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  2. Oh I hope she wasn't spared just to nag. I hope it was so she and Job could have "another" family.

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    1. 'Another family' still doesn't replace the loss of those 10 children. I have a friend who's lost 2 son's....she really struggles with this story, because she knows that even if she has 2 more children - they don't 'replace' the terrible loss.

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    2. You are right. The story of Job is complex at every turn, including the end, the second family. One of my friends, believes it is actually a hint that the first family was resurrected. I don't about that reading. But I appreciate your friend's struggles with Job. I think one of the points of the story and why it was kept in the Bible is that struggle with God is preferable to silent acquiescence. God would prefer we rage against him from our places of pain. God would prefer that honesty. I believe God can heal your friend's broken heart, but even healing would not make up for the loss of children. It would enable her to move on in life and to have joy in spite of her pain.

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    3. the thought disgusts me. JOB and his happiness and beautiful new daughters who have names disgust me.just as my innocent sons life meant nothing to the murdering stranger god favored i prayed for protection and peace god said NO MICHELE...death and saddness is your lot unplug him and shut up.

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    4. Hello: I know it hard to try to figure out God mind but I do wonder why he bless him with 10 more kids in the same order; 7 sons and 3 daughters; perhaps they were the same souls but different body. I often thought about it and my spirit give me peace with this analogy. Be bless everyone.

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    5. She lost 10 of her children. Have you no compassion for her. A lot of people get mad at God at times. I am sure she isn't the first nor will she be the last. Maybe we shouldn't but people do.

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    6. We do well to remember that our children and all that God has allowed in our lives is only temporary. Man’s days are few and full of trouble is what Job said. If they had not died then, they would, even as Mr and Mrs Job be dead now. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord. We sometimes forget that this world is not our home. Jesus went away to prepare a home for us, and everyone living has to die or be transformed at the rapture of the saints. I lost a daughter 5 days before Christmas one year. She was coming home for Christmas and was killed in an automobile crash. Oh how that hurt me till I realized that she wasn’t lost. We knew where she was. She’s in the arms of her Lord. Job’s children belonged to God. Your children and all 8 of my remaining children all belong to God too. I have spent my whole life telling and teaching them about their creator and savior because one day I and they too will leave this walk of life and go HOME. Be ready to go.

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  3. Yes they did have another family. But God had not told Satan not to harm her, so I as wondering why he didn't.

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    1. She was not targeted because she obviously was not righteous or she would not have told Job to curse God. She might have been cursing God herself when they died.

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  4. She performed a satanic role - she tried to separate Job from God.

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    1. Perhaps she was overcome with grief for her murdered nameless children. I KNOW HOW SHE FELT I hope you will also.

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    2. You know how much hurts. And you want others to hurt that way too?

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    3. Very good reply! I too lost a child. I made my pain known to him. HE still loves me! I pray she finds HIS grace too!

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    4. It pleased the Lord to take 2 of my children. I will see them at the rapture or my death. God meant it for my good. No hard feelings against my JESUS, who suffered much more to erase our sins and hate (aka 'murder')

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    5. I think she just wants you to stop being so cold and have compassion. If you can only learn to be compassionate through having a similar experience to hers, then that's better than detached intellect. Which it is. God Bless.

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  5. The following verse struck me this morning in light of the various postings in this blog so far.

    NRV translation
    Jeremiah 9:23- 24
    The Lord says, "Do not let a wise man brag about how wise he is. Do not let a strong man boast about how strong he is. .. He should brag that he has understanding and knows me. I want him to know that I am the Lord. No matter what I do on earth, I am always kind, fair, and right. And I take delight in that."

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    1. I don’t see where killing Job’s children to win a bet with the devil is Kind, Fair or Right.
      To kill them showed God did not find them of any worth.
      Such a merciful god.

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  6. Thanks for sharing that verse, Lynn. I think one of the things reader can learn in Job, and especially reading Job along side the Psalms, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes is that wisdom is elusive. No one should claim to be wise. We pursue wisdom. If a "wise man" calls himself wise, he has forfeited his wisdom. For that reason then, no matter what view we posit on the Bible, Job or any other book, we ought to opine in humility and with respect for those who have views other than ours.

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  7. Perhaps she is a loving wife and wants Job to die to end his suffering. It should be noted that she also is suffering having lost all the same things Job lost. It is perhaps ironic that she asks Job to do just what hasatan predicted he would do (curse God).

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    1. she cared for her children job did not.

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    2. This is the worst take I've seen here by far.
      If he didn't care for his children, there would have neen no point in their death. The whole purpose in their death was to inflict MAXIMIM GRIEF for Job. You don't prove you love your children by cursing God when they die. That only proves you've made your children an idol.

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  8. Job did care for his children. In verse 2:20 after hearing so much bad news about his property did arose and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worship. This was an act of mourning.
    He was silent until his children are killed.
    see Gen:37:34 and Isaiah 15:2

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    1. Yes Job prayed for his children in case they had sinned.

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  9. I believe all scripture is God breathed & that Job has wonderful teaching...but I have a lot of trouble with Job's family being killed...to prove faithfulness...especially for us now in light of the new covenant & who we are in Him...We now call Him Daddy Father & He is a good God...with many scripture referring to his love & mercy & kindness & protection of us....Do people forget that Job is in the poetry section of the Bible & that Job is probably the oldest book in the bible written even way before the the law, even before the formation of Israel...To take certain parts of Job, like God can kill families to prove your faithfulness "literally"...Just does not fit into who God is for us now in new covenant understanding......."Come to Jesus", but don't forget He can take your family out to prove your faithfulness "Come On"...is that the God we serve & promote in our evangelical endeavours !

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    1. I do think Job is poetry or extended parable. I agree with that. Even so, even in the story world, the children die, and that almost seems to be an ancillary. I think this story comes out of a time in Israel's history when the people of God were overrun by invaders (Assyrians or Babylonians). As they found themselves subject to mightier armies, and as innocent Israelites (children) died, I think the Job story posed the question. God, why are our children, Jewish children, allowed to die at the hands of Gentiles? God why are you allowing this. I think that type of questions lies behind the Job story. I think the entire account of Job intends to ask more questions than it answers. Upon reading Job, one should feel unsettled; as unsettled as one feels in the face of real life tragedies.

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    2. I believe that Job's sons were raised from the dead and the 3 daughters were transformed. In Job 1:2"there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters, vs 19 states that the house fell on the young men and they are dead, it did not specify the daughters. Job 42:13 states that "He had also seven sons and three daughters further explaining the transformation of the daughters. Scripture makes a point NOT to state that there were again born unto Job 7 sons and 3 daughters. As for Job's wife, they were rightfully matched. Her faith was right under her husband's faith. She faithfully stood with him through all of the severe testing but when she saw her husband sitting upon an ash heap scraping his boils and asking to
      die asking to die, she finally spoke through her loss and pain. You never hear of God rebuking her for it. God rewarded their faith with a most wonderful double restoration of material goods and the children with a double life. Please remember Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing but the honor of kings is to search out a matter. Jesus is the King of Kings and we are the knigs.

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    3. Anonymous, you say;Job is probably the oldest book in the bible written even way before the the law, even before the formation of Israel. Well, it was written before the law, but before Abraham, that may be stretching it. But as far as its age goes,it makes no difference as "God changes not",Malachi 3:6. He allowed satan to have his way with Job, even as also Paul (by the power of Christ) allowed satan to have access to the fellow who was in sin 1 Corinthians 5:5. Sure God is love, but you have left out an important scripture about his love; " For whom the Lord loves he chasten, and scourge's every son whom he receives." Hebrews 12:6. It doesn't hurt to go on to verse 11 describing its effect, though grievous: nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby". Thanks

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    4. I agree with the earlier comment. It still bothers me that God wants us to prove our loyalty like a gang or mob. How could I ever explain and get non-believers to understand this and willingly sign up to be a Christian. I never heard this story or the concept of suffering. All I was told was a better life in Christ and blah blah blah. So when I walked in on my son getting molested I wasn't suppose to question the "sovereign" God. Yea right give me a break. I'm tired of these trials to prove I love God. I'm done with this whole thing

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    5. I am so sorry. I cannot even imagine what you and your family have been and continue going through. So I certainly am in no position to "judge" your thoughts and feelings. I actually came to this site through a Google search. I had just read a devotion which talked about Job. I wanted to share it with my cousin, who just lost her 25 y/o daughter and they have no idea why she died. Autopsy revealed nothing. Needless to say, my cousin is devastated. I thought she might gain some comfort from the devotion I had read, but I hesitated in sending it. Why? Because of the part in Job's story where the children die and he later has new ones. I didn't see that part of the story doing much to make her "feel better." So I wanted to do a little research, and through that, I am here. I've read through this blog post and the comments, but I've found myself stopped here, on your comment. No, I haven't walked in your shoes and honestly, I pray I never do. Again, I can't even imagine. But I have had some significant hurt in my life. And I get it...it's hard to mesh together God's goodness with life's harshness. I just want you to know that I am praying for you and your family. I pray that as you navigate through this raging storm, you eventually find your way back to the place in your will where you can remember He is worthy of our trust...No matter what our feelings might be telling us. Because I know for me, when I allow myself to start navigating from my feelings, I become tunnel-visioned and then step into darkness. And if I allow myself to stay there too long, I will eventually spiral into hopelessness. I don't understand all the ways of God but I do know this. Hopelessness is not His desire--His plan for us. So I am praying. God be with you and your family. Again, I am so very sorry.

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    6. Your apologies for God and your fantasy that Job's story is a piece of poetry is rubbish. You can't just extrapolate your own meaning into parts of the Bible that make you uncomfortable or are too hard to understand. If Job were a parable don't you think God would tell us so rather than relying on you to tell us? We have to look more deeply into the story of Job which will take a lifetime.

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    7. you all did not answer the question? how can new children "replace" Job's first Children? its like replacing a lost dog or cat??? Job's Children were Human Beings not animals.

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    8. God didn't replace them. He gave Job double just like everything else. He doesnt have 10 new children, he has 10 more. Death is not permanent for the righteous and as Job sacrificed even for unknown sins his children may have committedn thier probably also righteousness; therefore there is no loss, especially from God's eternal perspective.

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  10. Is it possible Job's kids were raised from the dead?http://www.truebiblecode.com/understanding229.html
    Had never considered this before.. Check it out.

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  11. I think it is hard to locate Job historically. Many Bible readers suppose Job's children were resurrected. Many other see Job as parable, not a historic figure. So the conclusion in which his family is restored as it was before it a tidy resolution that may have been added by a later editor who was not satisfied with the way Job acknowledged God without ever having his loss alleviated. Resurrection is a very late idea in OT writing. A full Christian theology of resurrection was still developing at the end of the New Testament period. Read 1 Thessalonians and especially 2 Peter 3. Many readers believe 2 Peter was the final work of scripture to be composed, possibly in the early 2nd century. The ideas about the end there had developed from Jesus' "little apocalypse" (Mark 13 and parallels).

    Yes, it is possible Job's children were raised. No, we can't really know that.

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    1. Job 19:26
      “And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:”

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  12. Few points to consider
    1. Understanding the scriptures is not possible at without the express will/guidance of the Holy Spirit. Thus an unsaved person (unless they are being guided to salvation by the Holy Spirit) has no chance of understanding the scriptures.
    2. God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. Satan is none of these and most importantly not omniscient. So what this means is that there is no one who can understand God's grand scheme of things and that Satan is merely a character in God's plan. Satan does not believe that, his character being entirely anti-God (see his 5 "I will").
    With this background, we can understand that this whole situation was not a wager, was not a random event, was not Satan "playing" with God, was not unfortunate etc. Now to understand the events.
    1. God ultimate plan - as we read in 1 Pet 1:7 - to refine Job
    2. Job's sin - as we can understand throughout Job - his belief that he can maintain righteousness.
    3. Punishment - the material losses to Job - we all know are immaterial. The big question is related to his children. Will be concise as I am not a big fan of typing. From Job 1:5, we see that Job himself understood that his children indulged in feasts and had the habit of sinning and cursing God. The way it is worded may lead us to think that Job was only being extra cautious. But the Holy Spirit clearly shows us that Job knew this sin had happened and was likely to happen multiple times. Hence his tendency to offer sin offerings every time they feasted (Thus Job did continually vs 5). Now comes the most important point - Leviticus 1 talks about the atonement offering and how the offerer has to place his hand on the head of the offering to identify himself with the offering and thus signify atonement. Now of course the law was given way after Job's time but the principles remain the same. The offerer has to identify that he has sinned and identify himself with the offering. How else would it be an atonement? Job made the arrangments for their purification and offered the burnt offerings but nowhere are the children seen to be participating with a repentant heart. We see the significance of this in Job 42:8 - where the LORD says to the 3 friends -..sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. - this is the only acceptable way. A repentant sinner, an offering and a mediator - (which is what salvation under Grace is). Thus, it can be understood clearly that Job's children were not innocent bystanders nor part of a wager to be butchered ignorantly. It was God's righteous judgement upon them which took Job through a trial of fire and led to his refinement. This is not to say that all deaths are for punishment only. We have many examples in the scripture for that. But all things happen for one thing only - God's glory.

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    1. Amen. Thank you for your interpretation.

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    2. I agree. Thank you for your explanation.

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    3. Not possible that God judges his children, and thus execute them.
      1. He would have done that before Satan's claim.
      2. Job's atonement was accepted.. and IF it was before the Law as we assume it was, then there cannot be judgement against them according to Law.
      3. Vs 1:15 we have to add the Servants who were murdered who were Fathers and Sons...

      Key is look at the Bigger Picture
      1. God's Sovereignty was called into question
      2. Man's Integrity was called into question

      So was his children, the servants collateral in the Test? Yes

      I love your point that Is Death really so bad? No
      In fact the dead are better off.

      No his children were not resurrected.. they await a resurrection.. he got double .. the new children + the dead ones he will have once again.

      Over all - back then Death was accepted much better than we do today...
      Death happened
      Murder happened
      Prostitution was nearly normal
      Stealing wives was nearly common..
      Idol worship was an easy sin...

      So lots have changed..

      Suffering will always hurt. I hate it. God hates it. Jesus gave way to tears from death even knowing he can resurrect... it's an enemy.

      Today we are more psychologically broken.
      But I take hope in..

      Revelation 21:3,4
      Isaiah 65:17

      We won't recall this pain ever

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  13. tO ME IT JUST SEEMS AND REALLY HARD TO COMPREHEND, BY WHAT IS WRITTEN, WHY IN THE WORLD - HE WOULD ALLOW SATAN TO HARM HIS CHILDREN, ONLY THING COMES TO MY MIND IS -- IS THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH- DON'T GET A CLEAR PICTURE OF THAT-- I THINK A JUST AND HONEST GOD LETS US MAKES CHOICES, AND THOSE CHOICES HAVE CONSQUENCES.. GOD TODAY DOESN'T STOP HURRICANES - FLOODS - LOSS OF LIFE - IT SEEMS TO ME AND I TRUELY COULD BE WRONG- THAT GARDEN OF EDEN WAS HIS PERFRECT ENVIROMENT-- AFTER SIN ENETERED THE WORLD - THE CONESQUENCES OF THE FIRST SIN ARE FEALT EVERYWHERE - WHETHER THAT IS NATURE OR HUMAN EXISTENECT

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  14. I agree with the earlier comment. It still bothers me that God wants us to prove our loyalty like a gang or mob. How could I ever explain and get non-believers to understand this and willingly sign up to be a Christian. I never heard this story or the concept of suffering. All I was told was a better life in Christ and blah blah blah. So when I walked in on my son getting molested I wasn't suppose to question the "sovereign" God. Yea right give me a break. I'm tired of these trials to prove I love God. I'm done with this whole thing

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    1. I agree; trials exhaust us. The one character in the book of Job who openly God was Job, and he was vindicated in the end. All his questions were not answered, but he was the only who stood up in right standing before God. He was honest. He challenged God to a court case, certain he would win, if someone could be found to be a judge. I'm sure walking in on your son being molested was awful. I don't know who told you not to question, but I say question him. Hit God with your hardest questions. He can take it. If I was trying to explain Job to a believer or a non-believer, I'd say come to God, full-force, with all your pain and loss. Lay it right at God's feet. I don't what's going to happen when you do, but God invites honesty.

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    1. You said; "We cannot know the divine mind and I accept that." Paul didn't accept that, as he said,(to those like you) "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus" Philippians 2:5. Then he shows the difference between the unbeliever and the believer with; "For who has known the mind of the Lord (not the unbeliever), that he may instruct him? but we (the believer) have the mind of Christ." 1 Corinthians 2:16, yet difference is, we do not "instruct him"!

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  16. I am reading these comments and I can't believe how "harsh" people are being on Job's wife? Whatever happened to Job happened to her also minus the sores all over Job's body.

    She tells Job to curse God and die and people call this poor woman who lost all her 10 children at once a nag.

    First of all, in case people haven't noticed Job too thought God was being unfair to him yet no one condemns Job.

    Maybe she shouldn't have been angry at God but is she the first person to ever do this.

    Who came to comfort this woman who went through the pains of childbirth of having 10 children and then lost all of her children at once?

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  17. This is quite the apotropaic analysis. You’ve engaged in quite the mental gymnastics to direct evil away from God. God clearly exercises evil in the story of Job, and he acts in ways that are good as well. God is not only good, he is evil too, which is evidenced by Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” To see what happens to Job as nothing but good is to sacrifice your intellect. God treated Job unfairly, thus he incarnates into Jesus and allows himself to be treated unfairly by man as a recompense.

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    1. Evil does God creat it? Isaiah 45:7. It is translated as calamity by the NASB and NKJV; disaster by the NIV; and woe by the RSV.
      Second, the context of the verse is speaking of natural phenomena.
      Notice that the context of the verse is dealing with who God is, that it is God who speaks of natural phenomena (sun, light, dark), and it is God who is able to cause “well-being” as well as “calamity.” Contextually, this verse is dealing with natural disasters and human comfort issues. It is not speaking of moral evil; rather, it is dealing with calamity, distress, etc. This is consistent with other scriptures. For example,
      “And the Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?” (Exodus 4:11).
      “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?” (Amos 3:6).
      Also, take note that Isaiah is presenting contrasts. He speaks of “light” and “darkness,” “well-being” and “calamity.” The word “well-being” in Hebrew is the word for ‘peace,’ “Shalome.” So, in the context, we are seeing two sets of opposites: Light and dark, peace and non-peace, or well-being and calamity. The “evil” that is spoken of is not ontological evil, but the evil experienced by people in the form of calamity.
      From the above two verses (Exodus 4:11; Amos 3:6) we can see that the Lord is involved in calamity and problems in the earthly realm. Exodus 4:11 is speaking of human frailty and Amos 3:6 is speaking of woes in a city. It is not a moral evil that God brings, but calamity and distress upon people.
      Third, other verses clearly show that God is pure and that He cannot approve of evil.
      “The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; a God of faithfulness and without injustice, righteous and upright is He,” (Deut. 32:4).
      “Thine eyes are too pure to approve evil, and Thou canst not look on wickedness with favor,” (Hab. 1:13).
      We can see that the Bible teaches that God is pure and does not approve of evil, that the word rah (evil) in Hebrew can mean many things, and that contextually the verse is speaking of calamity and distress. Therefore, God does not create evil in the moral sense, but in the sense of disaster or calamity.

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  18. I want to add my perspective on the issue of the dead children and the new ones. I am a woman who decided not to have children, only finding faith in the last few years, my mother and siblings all have many children and I believe some are idolizing them.
    We are not to love anyone or anything more than we love god. Job and his wife suffered great loss in one go but god allowed it. A loss of Faith and relationship with God to me seems worse than losing 10 children but that's easy for me to say because I dont have any children to understand that type of love. Perhaps this story is alot about considering how we should apportion value on what we are blessed to have. God SHOULD be at the top.

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  19. Not that I believe one can lose Faith if it has been given and a person has believed in Jesus as Saviour.
    A person can 'lose' Faith when Jesus is available to them as Saviour but they haven't believed.

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  20. That is not an trail how can a God say that he loves his children and to come like a child and yet make them suffer and make them cry when they our so innocent and you would use the most painful way to destroy them and to stalk them from there place of were they were happy and take out your anger on them when you didnt do it to satan at all you let him go away with it when I thought that you and jesus treasured all children even if they dont know you all the way why would chose the place you to destroy and force it never said in the bible that you would make the unthinkable decision about people what about your children so you changed your mind on heaven and hell that you chose a way to leave the ones that you had in the beginning our now last and who was last is now first is that how you see the new word now to rather then love the old word you made a new one just to show how you would pick on one and use your power to be thrown in corner you never warned about your new word you just use your evilness and you take out on the wrong I hate how I never believe in god and then the minute I make my change you were never really there you spoke of how you should be praised so we go and you see praise so you follow through and you never told about the other side and the minute you become forced to make a decision you say that people sin at least 777 times a day why do you not just say one I will change the word for my biological family no warning to pray it out and then everyone goes to heaven and yet you say that it's a needle in a haystack well I just wanted that your test our not funny and the hurtful my boys no matter what were and my world no matter my ups downs in life and yet they always get what they needed I fell that you let down the true people who needed the most and it becomes a show boat and just because I prayed one prayer out of anger and you brought that up in my dream and then it was about a promise you said and it was never about that you cursed the day I was born and you took out on stan gene Leija biological boys and stan gene Leija Leija biological boys from places what did do with them they did nothing to you there innocent and then there biologicals fathers cry out so you put a curse on on us for no reason at all my biological boys ramon gene leijas and all my boys I had were evil and you let them be torchered with pain and tear wondering what they did to deserve this pain like me and them why would you take it out on them but your family does what and doesn't cry or feel pain you should of me that you would your talk black haired boy you're favored one with his new word to hate on us and your boy with blonde hair with a big white coat would favor someone else and make my heart to be like Rachel weeping for her children and make feel there tears on heart your pure evil in my eyes the way I feel I hope you enjoyed the power of your decision when they didnt do anything to you at all they our not satan's children so I guess you made your pick but even when I tried to come back and pray you never bothered to answer you just showed ass your rather show you power of pain thanks god for a word that doesn't say how you could be to trample on people

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    1. Makes you wonder why you went in the beginning to church

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  21. The story of Job unsettles me. Yes, it all ‘worked out’ for him in the end. But what good is material wealth? And, more disturbingly: how doe 10 new kids make up for the loss of the old ones? They are not the same people and are almost listed as posessions or status symbols.
    But perhaps the thing I have the most trouble with: yes, it’s written from Job’s perspective. What about the perspective from one of the dead children? Why do they lose their lives? How is it ‘ok’ for Job’s situation to so negatively and shockingly impact the lives of his loved ones? I cannot see this story in the positive light that we seem supposed to. It’s one thing between God and me, impacing my own life to ignite spiritual growth. But my trials impact my beloveds and they suffer as a result - and how is that fair on them?

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  22. Not once in this thread has anyone answered the single burning question being asked repeatedly here. All I see are plenty of self-appointed sages with no depth, giving their "opinions" and "beliefs."

    Here is the answer. It will relieve your pain, as described herein.

    The correctly translated 6th Commandment is "thou shalt not murder," NOT "thou shalt not kill." There is NO translation anywhere in our existence that deviates from this.

    Those behind English bibles being written using the word "kill" instead of the word "murder" in the 6th Commandment, were unrighteous men indeed, because of the MASSIVE bad things resulting from this, over the centuries. And all because - in a nutshell - everyone wants to add his two cents into God's word.

    The universally-accepted biblical fact, as to the difference between killing and murder is, "All murder is killing, but not all killing is murder." Further, "All murder is sin, but not all killing is sin."

    The definition of murder was established by God himself. There are over 100 verses in the Old Testament where God gave men specific orders to kill other men. God ordered nations to slaughter other nations (including the kids) in war, for example. Other times, God did the slaughtering himself.

    But God did not call this murder, because according to God, those people legally/morally/ethically deserved it - with the defining highlight being the word "deserve."

    In a nutshell, that is the test to measure whether killing is a sin or not: All murder is sin, but only some killing is murder - depending on moral, ethical, and legal grounds.

    This is the universally-accepted Christian justification between killing (not sin) and murder (sin). Up to this point, there can be no argument at all - or else it is true that God ordering one nation to destroy everyone in another nation (including the kids) is actually sin and evil behavior.

    With all the above in mind, my question is: did God allow Satan to kill Job's children (1) despite the fact that morally, ethically, and legally they were not deserving of being killed, or (2) they were deserving, but this was somehow omitted from the book of Job?

    This is the question everyone is struggling to understand, and all I see are self-appointed sages begging the question.

    If the truth is that Job's kids were NOT deserving to be killed AND God did not return them happy and intact (later) to Job, then it is a GIVEN that God is both a killer and a murderer based on Commandment #6 that he gave us. God REPLACING Job's kids would NOT account for murdering them, and I personally would NO problem getting in God's face and saying so IF it were true.

    But that possibility is illogical, as sin is sin, and if God is evil then there was never hope of any kind for mankind. Killing someone who does not merit it, IS murder, and IS sin, and IS evil - as defined by God himself, and as universally accepted in law by man.

    And that means ONE of THREE possibilities is the truth you all need:

    (1) God reincarnated Job's kids later

    (2) Job's kids deserved to be killed and God ultimately explained this to Job - but Job omitted that in his book

    (3a) The book of Job never happened in real life. It was a play (it actually was a play in olden times) and nothing more

    (3b) The book of Job as we have it is not complete

    Regardless of which of the three is true, one is true, and can be trusted as the answer in order to end the pain any of you question-askers feel. The bible was NOT written to trick and fool us, or to create problems.

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  23. I’m sure Jobs kids were guaranteed into Heaven and Job knew it. Same with him. He knew that this was just a little time of suffering and that he would be guaranteed into heaven and it would be worth it in the end. That’s the way I read it anyway.

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  24. I lost my 21 year old son Dylan to suicide. He shot himself in the the head threw the roof of the mouth with a 22 hunting rifle, because this world is no good is pretty much the reason he did it.. I found Dylan myself with the pool of blood around him. He was never on drugs and not ever in any kind trouble not even once in his whole life .I blame myself for not seeing signs before this & I blame God. I curse and threaten to kill/mutilate jesus in front of God everyday . At this point if god even exists I hate him. If he was really so almighty, loving, and in control then he wouldn't allow this kind of stuff to happen

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  25. you all did not answer the question? how can new children "replace" Job's first Children? its like replacing a lost dog or cat??? Job's Children were Human Beings not animals.

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  26. Well looky there. The bible lied. Says God cannot be tempted. To make a bet with Satan on Job's faith IS PROOF that God CAN be tempted and took the bait. Contradiction indeed. All at the cost of lives. And, being God, KNEW what the outcome was going to be. Therefore, wasted lives. God but especially Job had nothing to prove anything extra than what he WAS already doing. WASTE of a bet. Yep, God was indeed tempted at innocent people's lives. Not impressed. If I was his wife, I would have said NO. Too many kids destroys the flooring of a woman's body.

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  27. The story of Job is one of the many stories, mostly Old Testament, that led me to conclude, after being a Christian and DEVOUT seeker of truth for over 30 years, that God is not there. It was becoming a father that made me realize this.

    God supposedly loves us as a father loves his children. But God's actions demonstrate otherwise. If God truly loved like a father, he would know that children are not replaceable. Even a 100 new children could not make up for the loss of a single one.

    The world's Christian population continues to decrease every year, even as the current population continues to increase. This means that more and more souls are born every year destined for Hell. Yet even so, God has done nothing - or at least, nothing NEW - for over 1700 years. One would think it were time for action in order to reverse the trend, but God remains content to let everything go on as before. Would a loving father do nothing if more and more of his children were bound for eternal suffering?

    Finally, there is the thought of Heaven - where one receives their eternal celestial reward after spending a relatively short and brutal existence on earth. However, not everyone we love will make it. Many people have parents, brothers and sisters, spouses, and even children who, according to Christian teaching, they will be separated from, while retaining the knowledge that their loved ones are eternally suffering. Who would see heaven as a reward? Who would feel even a moment's peace with the knowledge that those you cared for are damned? Does heaven remove one's ability to feel empathy? Do we simply cease to care about those we love? That doesn't sound like heaven to me.

    After much soul searching, and years of trying to reconcile my doubts with my faith, I can only conclude that either God is evil, or that God does not exist. This revelation did not come as a comfort to me at first. I suffered much anxiety at the thought, as I had built so much of my worldview and peace of mind on my faith. But slowly the faith came. The thought of death being the end is no longer scary, but is actually a comfort now. I realized that I did not lose my send of morality, but rather I was able to form an even better one. I no longer saw the world as a place where I was obligated to endure trials and persecution for the sake of bringing glory to a silent and inscrutable being, but rather as an opportunity to experience life for a short time. I overcome trials and hardship for MY sake now - so that I can enjoy what I have, while I have it.

    I won't tell you what to believe. But perhaps you should allow yourself to ask questions, and stop accepting "the answer is unknowable" as an answer.

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    1. "I overcome trials and hardship for MY sake now"

      So...you have become your own god. The same decision billions have made before you.

      I hope you negotiate well with the other little gods when their enjoyment conflicts with your enjoyment. I suppose that's when survival of the fittest little god will rule the day.

      "Do as thou wilt is the whole of the law." - Aleister Crowley

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  28. Ok loosing children was horrible, but why is no focus on the servants? They were husbands, fathers, uncles, and female were mothers and wives.

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  29. This entire story is made more cruel when you factor in that god knows all. He new the moment Satan was created. He knew the moment Job was created. It was a complete waste of time for God. It only allowed him to have some feeling of superiority over Satan. You cannot replace lost children. Then you have the hardship of raising replaced children with a broken heart. I think it shows how out of touch God is with his children. It shows that he created us but he isn’t one of us. God may know what loss is but doesn’t truly understand it.

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